Jelena Madzarevic is a building and material sciences specialist at EllisDon, a very well-known global construction company. Jelena earned her Bachelor of Science from Toronto Metropolitan University with a chemistry major and a physics minor. She then went on to earn a Master of Building Science, also from TMU. In her current position, Jelena conducts design reviews and risk advisements, amongst many other responsibilities in the construction services division. In this conversation, Jelena talks about the many opportunities that chemistry has to offer. A career in construction is quite untraditional for a chemistry major, yet so applicable. Tune in to learn how Jelena was able to merge her passions for chemistry, engineering, and physics through building science as a woman in construction. Produced by Ment Projects. Follow us on @mentprojects on all social media platforms for updates and more mentorship resources. Visit our website to learn more about the mission and services of MENT: https://www.ment-projects.com/ Episode transcript: https://the-mentorship-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/s1e04-jelena-madzarevic-building-material-sciences-specialist-applying-chemistry-to-construction/transcript
Jelena Madzarevic is a building and material sciences specialist at EllisDon, a very well-known global construction company. Jelena earned her Bachelor of Science from Toronto Metropolitan University with a chemistry major and a physics minor. She then went on to earn a Master of Building Science, also from TMU. In her current position, Jelena conducts design reviews and risk advisements, amongst many other responsibilities in the construction services division.
In this conversation, Jelena talks about the many opportunities that chemistry has to offer. A career in construction is quite untraditional for a chemistry major, yet so applicable. Tune in to learn how Jelena was able to merge her passions for chemistry, engineering, and physics through building science as a woman in construction.
Produced by Ment Projects. Follow us on @mentprojects on all social media platforms for updates and more mentorship resources. Visit our website to learn more about our mission and services.
Welcome back to MENT TO BE. I'm Julia, the founder of MENT Projects, a mentorship business rooted in innovation and collaboration. MENT TO BE is a podcast series that features professionals from various industries and highlights the diverse opportunities that these fields have to offer. In our conversations, we break down each step of our guests academic and career journey, from high school all the way to their current role. We look at the different challenges and decisions they face to contribute to their growth and shows how their career is "ment to be".
In today's episode, we are joined by Jelena Madzarevic, a building and material sciences specialist at EllisDon, a very well-known global construction company. Jelena earned her Bachelor of Science from Toronto Metropolitan University with a chemistry major and a physics minor. She then went on to earn a Master of Building Science also from TMU, which led to her current position in the construction sciences division at EllisDon.
I have a bit of a personal connection to this episode because I also graduated from the chemistry program at TMU for my undergrad. Jelena was actually a few years ahead of me, but I knew her through different student groups and through the chemistry community. I got to watch Jelena progress through her career from afar, and it is very interesting that we have this shared experience of the same chemistry undergrad program, yet our paths are so different. So it really shows all the different opportunities that chemistry and science have to offer.
In today's conversation, Jelena talks about how she was able to merge her interest in chemistry, physics, and engineering through the building science industry. This career path was not something I knew about when I was an undergrad, so I'm really excited to have Jelena on the podcast today to share her knowledge and experiences. Now, telling us how her journey is "ment to be", it is Jelena Madzarevic.
We're going to start on what interested you when you were younger. Specifically, my first question is, what did you want to be when you grew up?
That's a really good question. So, I think some of my earliest memories were not exactly science related. And oh, this is such an odd place to start, but I think it was in the like 2000, the year 2000 and Britney Spears came out with "Oops I Did it Again". And at the time, watching that, I thought like, oh, this is an option for me. Like this could be my future. Like I could be a pop star on tv. So for like the first bit, you know, I was like, okay, this makes a lot of sense. But then it just never really happened and things just kind of snowballed into a very different direction of science, of course.
And some important background is that my, my mom's a scientist. So, she, you know, went the furthest with it. She did a PhD in everything. She even did a postdoc. So, in my head, science was always like an option. And then on my dad's side, he's an engineer. So, I knew I'd be - eventually I knew I'd be in that kind of world somewhere with science and engineering. Yeah, pop music didn't really work out, I don't know.
Oh my God. I'm so excited though that you said that because every time I do these episodes and I ask this question, I always think about what my answer would be, and that actually is my answer.
Oh, we're so alike!
And specifically, Britney Spears.
Oh my God. We're the same person. Chemistry and Britney Spears.
That's true. My gosh. Yeah, that's so funny that you said that. Okay. What was your mom's field in specifically? Yep. So I think her undergrad was biology and then her like master's in PhD was more pharmacy, pharmacology.
Okay. So similar, like related to chemistry. It's not like, like it was math based or something? No, she was really good at chemistry. Yeah. Okay. So then as you were going through high school and you were getting more serious with your future Yeah. What kind of universities and programs were you looking at specifically?
Yeah. So around that time in grade 12 where I had to like pick, you know, universities and, and programs, I, truthfully, I had some boundary conditions with my parents. They definitely wanted me to stay in Toronto and they wanted me to kind of, you know, not do anything too risky. So, I had like three schools on the table, of course.
TMU, Ryerson at the time, York and U of T. So, I applied to all of them, and all of my application choices were undeclared science. I couldn't - it was so generic. I didn't really have a path in mind or a set kind of decision of where I wanted to go. So that's kind of what I applied to and then I ended up choosing Ryerson, TMU.
Did you choose it just because you like the vibe more? I know a lot of people are gravitated to TMU cause it's right in the heart of downtown, or was there a certain reason that you chose it over the other two?
There were definitely some vibes considered. Yeah. At the time, and I think even today, UofT has a certain reputation of "U of Tears" and whatnot. And, York was another option on the table and my brother had gone to York, so I had to eliminate it cause I couldn't be at the same school as my older brother. And that left Ryerson and then at the time I knew so little about it. I just knew that it was downtown. I knew it was near the Eaton Center and I thought, okay, well this is sounding really cool. I had a couple of friends that were going, but for some very different programs, not even in the Faculty of Science. So, I somehow, you know, ended up choosing it on a whim and it ended up being the best decision.
Yeah. And I also did undeclared science in my first year. That would be my advice to a lot of people too, to do undeclared if you can. And if you're going into science, undeclared is an option cause no matter what, you have to do all five courses in first year, like physics, math, and everything. So at least you kind of have that pressure off and you can choose at the end of the year. So, in that case then, how did you end up choosing chemistry out of the other options?
Yeah, that, that's a good one. And that's also something that I never really expected for myself, cause in, I think like grade 11/12 chemistry wasn't exactly a strong subject. And, and at the time I thought I would be more interested in biology and I already had my mom being coming from that area. So, I thought that would be a natural kind of next step, but, when I was finally in university doing the courses, doing the labs, I just didn't enjoy them. I didn't enjoy all the memorization and I found chemistry to be a lot more interesting.
And I think what appealed to me the most was how it has like the physical sciences aspect, like there's still a strong physics component and when you look at the coursework over the course of four years, like you still have to take a number of physics courses. And I found those really cool relative to what was on the list for all the bio courses.
So that's kind of what led me to chemistry and, you know, I should mention at the time, Breaking Bad was a very popular show, so it definitely helped sway my decision, although, you know, it's not like I aspire to be like Walter, but it just really put chemistry on the map as like something cool and, you know, on tv.
Yeah. Yeah, I was the same way. I think I did not resonate with bio at all because it was just word heavy. Yeah, there was a lot of reading. And I liked more of the math side, but then I was also kind of too intimidated to go into just pure maths. Thinking back, I wish I gave myself that chance. But chemistry was a good balance between everything. Absolutely.
I was going to ask though, did you ever consider engineering, because like you said, your dad has that background and I feel like sometimes people just focus in on the sciences and they forget that engineering is even an option. So, was that going through your mind?
Unbelievably so. It wasn't even on my radar. And I'm like kind of disappointed in my younger self. I wish I had given it some more thought. But I hadn't even considered it. And I think, you know, kind of seeing some of my dad's textbooks around the house and he brought like documents at home, like big drawings and stuff. I never thought that, I never had that curiosity to ask more questions. I was kind of, content and maybe not digging into it, but if I could go back, I would've looked into it a bit more. That's one factor.
And then another factor is that honestly I wasn't very strong academically in high school. And I think a lot of us know that engineering programs are a lot more competitive relative to maybe some of the more general sciences. So even if I did want to go into it, I don't think I had the grade point average at all coming out of high school. So, in a couple ways, it's like it wouldn't have been able to work out anyways. I would've had to have raised my GPA through some other program and then try to get in.
Yeah, there's two sides to it. Like in one way, I feel like both of us might be in a position where we look back and be like, we could have tried engineering and even just to see if we liked it, cause I definitely have that thought too. But then in the other way, you still can have a Bachelor of Science in a program like chemistry and still have opportunities in engineering, which I think we'll be able to see in your career development as well. So, there is both sides to it for sure.
And then you ended up deciding to bring in physics as a minor then as well, right? Yes. And so is that, because what you were talking about, you liked the number side of it, the physics components were really interesting to you. So, I guess, you kind of had an idea that you would choose more of the physics courses when the courses became optional, so might as well make a minor at that point.
Exactly, and I don't really remember when I made that call, but I think by maybe second year there was some physics course that I was required to take for chem and it just went really well and I enjoyed the topic and I enjoyed just solving problems and doing calculations, deriving, you know, formulas and all that.
And I thought, okay, well this is like an easy way to choose all my professional electives. I can just choose them all in the physics category. And then it, you know, took me to all the medical physics courses at TMU, where the physics department is a medical physics department. It's special. So, I found that very cool and it just further, you know, broadened my horizons in that really intense understanding of how everything in like the medical technology field works. So, I found that very rewarding and cool. And I think something special about TMU that not a lot of other schools have.
Yeah, for sure. It has that medical physics program, which I feel like a lot of people gravitate to. Can you tell us a little bit more about your undergrad program? I mean, I obviously know a lot about it because I took it myself, but what kind of courses were you doing aside from the physics ones? I guess, what did the landscape really look like for you?
So, like you mentioned, the first year was general sciences. You take a course in everything, chemistry, physics, biology, math. Then as the years go on, you get into more specialized courses such as organic chemistry, inorganic chemistry, analytical chemistry, which is kind of like the CSI course, like you get to like, analyze samples and whatnot and, and really feel like an invest.
So, another TV show reference, CSI is a really good show to get you excited about analytical chemistry and probably biochemistry as well. If you take that angle. And then in the later years there were more specialized courses with like, I think even pharmaceutical chemistry, advanced organic chemistry.
We had to take quantum physics or quantum chemistry. I think they might've changed some of the wording with that course. And then, then you have the option to do all the electives, which I went the physics route, but then some of my friend did like I think polymers and, and some other more high level more chemistry courses.
Because I have a similar experience to you. Those different chemistry courses started coming in in second and third year. I would say more so in second, because second was when you did analytical, organic, physical, like all the different types of chemistry. Were you starting to kind of survey the different chemistries at that point and seeing which one you would like more? Because I definitely was, I was using that as a way of, okay, if I work in a lab, which one of these fields would I like more?
Exactly. And I think the program was set up in a good way where it shows you kind of all the different fields early on. And then as time goes on in the program can kind of lean on on one side, whether it be orgo or inorganic. And I think of all of them, I probably liked either organic or analytical the most. And then I think I picked more electives on the side of organic.
Okay. And so, were you participating in any internships or part-time jobs during your undergrad that was related to chemistry or even physics?
So specifically related to chemistry and just science in general. I did have one short kind of volunteer opportunity in a lab the very first summer after first year. And that was more on the like molecular biology side of things. And then the following summer, I spent a summer with the Koivisto Group. So, he's an excellent professor at TMU in the chemistry department. And the topics of that summer position was more synthesis and whatnot.
And then after that honestly, I don't think I ever did any other chemistry related placements or internships. I ended up doing some work with my dad, actually, who's an engineer. He was a working engineer at the time, so I was helping him where he worked and, and his, his drawings and whatnot, designs and specs and stuff. I kind of started changing worlds.
Yeah. Well, I noticed when I was looking through your resume, the first two summers were more lab-based internships, or volunteer positions more related to chemistry, and then it just kind of dropped off from there. So, I'm really interested in hearing about this change and I feel like this is a good point to ask my burning question that I've been thinking. So, to kind of preface for the audience listening, it's very common for students in chemistry to continue in academia or pursue a career path that involves chemistry research labs.
I'm wondering if this was the point of your career where you were choosing between continuing with research labs and exploring other fields or other paths. What was that decision like for you and how did you end up deciding against pursuing the chemistry lab route?
Yeah, really great question and you're right. I think when you kind of hear about all my experiences, there's a very strong turning point which would've been around I think maybe third year or so. And you know, I can't really explain in specifics cause I don't really remember, but I had a sense that like the lab stuff just wasn't happening.
And it's not that I minded the work. And it's not that like I found lab work difficult. It wasn't coming naturally. And I think, I think a lot of us kind of know when something just kind of flows to you naturally, it'll just start making sense and it just wasn't making sense.
But on the other hand, you know some of this work I was doing helping out my dad, it was making sense and it was feeling very natural and as I worked longer and longer, I was given more opportunities there. Other people needed support on their project, so I was able to step in and after a while I was doing the same responsibilities that maybe an engineering intern was doing, and I kind of had a realization that, okay, this is coming naturally to me.
I really enjoy this. I think I'm gonna just change routes completely and, and maybe, you know, start to let go of some of this chemistry and some of this lab work that I've been working on for so and so many years. Well, not so many, but a couple years prior, so, yeah.
Well, really and dedicating like every day to it with your courses and everything studying chemistry. Yes. So many courses. What exactly were you working on in the engineering roles that you were doing? Was it, you kind of mentioned supporting others and being involved in designs as well, right?
Yeah, so more broadly, they're an engineering consulting firm, and they specialize in mechanical and electrical. And my dad specifically was working on like communications and security systems that are kind of under the category of electrical and all of this was for buildings. And fortunately, a lot of the buildings were downtown. They were in Toronto. They were, they were recognizable. They were very tangible.
And one example would be like a layout of where all the like audio devices will be in a room, like a meeting room. Right. Or the layout of where all the cable connections for the internet are gonna be and or wireless access points and whatnot. And it was just so like real and like, you know, a few months later it would get installed and then a few more months later, somebody would be in there and connect wifi.
It just felt like, you know, the little things I did at at work, like and at the position of the wireless access point was a very realized thing in real life where somebody would eventually connect to it. I don't know, I just thought that was cool. So, drawings and drafting was one thing, and then the other thing was like other supporting documentation like specifications, reports, letters and whatnot. I was just helping out.
I can definitely see though, how you would be able to compare and contrast that kind of position and field with chemistry research labs, because research is totally different. You don't see your results right away. You may never see results. Yeah. And so, I totally understand why you were talking about how it might not have felt natural to you to in a research lab, whether it be specifically with chemistry or something similar. And so, as you were starting to go through your undergraduate program even more what were your postgraduate plans? What were you starting to think about?
So, it wasn't exactly very linear. I wasn't super certain of what I wanted to do. And kind of in that time period where, you know, I'm going away from chemistry, I'm going into a different direction more towards engineering, more towards buildings what I actually did was I got a Google sheet or an Excel file and I put a bunch of columns of different potential options, and I put colleges, I put certificate programs that are just kind of done on your own and you just write some exams and pay money. I put university programs, I put like undergrads even. I was like willing to go to undergrad again. I put masters and then like maybe some shorter certificates at universities, and I just kind of laid it all out and I started going like, one by one. Pros and cons.
You know, I started looking like at potential salaries. I did like a whole kind of analysis just to figure something out and during that time, I landed on the building science program at, at TMU's architectural science department. And from just like the first few paragraphs about the program and just the title of the program, it just made so much sense cause you know, first I was doing science. But then I wanted to go into buildings and then it was called building science.
Yeah. So it, it just, it was very logical and of all the things on the list, it just like stood out the most, but at the same time I was like, "Oh no, how am I gonna get in?" I don't have an architecture undergrad. I don't have an engineering undergrad. So it turned out they didn't really require that and I was able to submit an application.
So when you were making that Excel sheet, were all the things kind of related to buildings?
Yes. Definitely buildings. Okay. But not necessarily like building science. Like some of it was electrical related, some of it was mechanical related, which, you know, are very different disciplines. Like I was definitely all over the map.
And so then you ended up enrolling into a Master of Building Science, still at TMU. And so can you tell us about what the program was like in terms of, was it more course-based? Was it more research or thesis based?
Yep. So it was course-based. However, you were still required to do a research project and they call that a like MRP, Master's Research Project. So, I still had to do some research.
So that was working in a lab or was it your own research?
Yeah, it, it was pretty free form. Okay. You had a lot of flexibility. Because of my undergrad, the only thing that came to my mind was to do lab work. So I ended up going for like a lab-based project that was materials related. And you know, there were some chemistry aspects. I did some gas chromatography and stuff. And then on the more material side, I ended up doing some spectroscopy as well.
What did that feel like now going back into a research lab, which is kind of what we were talking about. You were trying to stray away from that and now you're back in that. Did it feel different because it was not so much chemistry based, it was more the building science based?
Yeah, it was definitely different and I was actually really excited and I just felt like my research plan, like we had to come up with first, with a research question of course, and then set up our experiments. And I feel like it all just kind of like flowed very easily for me because of my undergrad and because I knew, you know, I took so many analytical chemistry courses.
I knew every single piece of equipment and what it was made up of. So that part ran very smoothly. I think once I started doing it, and once I started going through that literature review process and, and whatnot I realized how intertwined chemistry is with, you know, building science and whatnot and with material science.
So it was very kind of validating to me to, you know, switch from a chemistry undergrad to a very different master's, but still find, have so much value in all the skills I've used. And they've translated very seamlessly to this specific field. And I'm sure they do the same in many other engineering fields or you know, possibly even other fields beyond sciences.
And you also did a summer program in Vienna? Yes. Was that during your master's? It was related to building science?
That's right. Yes. It was in between when I had done my coursework, but I still had to finish some of my research. I took I think a month and a half off to go to Vienna. Okay. And the program was called Green Building Solutions.
How did you find that? What was it about? What did you learn from this?
So I found out about it through the master's program. One of the profs was affiliated. I think he had guest lectured before, and he was keen on having students from our program attend the summer camp. So that's how I found out about and applied, and I got in .
And then what did it entail? So it was kind of like going to school. So it was like kind of nine to five lectures. And then, you know, in those lectures sometimes there were like a hands-on component or activity. And then towards the middle and end of the program, we also had a studio component.
And studio is like, kind of like a lab. It's like an architecture workshop. You, you get into groups and you work on a given design project, and we were given an interesting project where we had to like design a small building for a small town somewhere in Austria.
Wow. That's really interesting. I always love hearing about students international opportunities and experiences that they've had. And it's just so interesting because it actually took a long time for me to finally accept that I wanted to go into a science program. And one of the reasons holding me back was because I thought it was going to be really limiting.
I thought that if I was in science, I would always be very stationary and it wouldn't allow me to see different things. But then that's- like all my international experiences, career-wise have been from science. So it's really interesting to hear that you also had that opportunity.
I mean, I know I didn't go into it, but I'd argue science is probably one of the most international fields. Like, you know, you don't have to speak the same language, but you can show each other lab results and whatnot. Yeah. And like you're still studying the same thing. So, for others there's so many international opportunities out there.
So before we move on from your educational experience, I also want to mention how you were very involved in different leadership and community roles. Like I mentioned at the beginning, that's where we must have met, in student groups. I was also really involved. And so I wanted to have you discuss the importance of becoming involved in these kind of roles. Specifically, if you have one in mind that stands out that allowed you to have greater opportunities or make a bigger impact on the community, if you could share that.
For sure. So at the beginning of university like on the first day even an opportunity came my way. I happened to have found a friend or made a friend that day and she was very keen and interested in student leadership. And at the time, I didn't really- I was just overwhelmed to be going to school.
Yeah. Like I was overwhelmed to be going downtown, but I was like, okay, like might as well follow along with her and get involved with her. And that was at the beginnings of Ryerson Science Society. And so that's kind of how I got my first start. And then it, what I found that it sort of snowballed, like once you do one thing, you meet people, you get involved with other things, and then you become interested in different things.
And a few, like I think second year I had the opportunity to do Toastmasters. And I just joined as a member, and that was under Ted Rogers school, like the business school. And then after year of being a, a normal member they were looking for people to volunteer with them. So I started volunteering and I ended up, I think running or being on their like board as like a co- VP of something. And that was an incredible opportunity because it exposed me to a whole different crowd of students, different programs, different experiences and whatnot. And, and if you're not familiar, Toastmasters, it's about public speaking and personal development. So it was definitely a space of like-minded people who are just keen to work on themselves. Be a little bit better.
And then I think the final one that I think was very meaningful to me was obviously Chemistry Course Union. It's my own program, so anything I do for my follow classmates and the cohort below me, it was very meaningful and rewarding kind of. Volunteering time spent, you know, ordering pizza and booking rooms and whatnot, and having activities.
Yeah. I know sometimes I feel like it's, it's hard to get people involved in student politics or in extracurriculars in general because it's just already so hard to balance your own studying and coursework. But these opportunities actually really allow you to expand your skills, beyond the classroom. They connect you to a lot of people. They enhance your resume and there's actually pretty serious roles. Like people think, oh, it's just a student group. It's not that serious, but you're handling large sums of money in a lot of cases. It's also managing people and stuff. So that's always, I think, a good thing to get involved in if you can.
And so as you were then going through your masters and starting to finish up, what were you thinking for post-graduation?
I did the same thing that I did a few years prior. You know, I went on Excel, I started making lists, and I think I, I put every single building science firm in Toronto and even like Canada more broadly, like I just kind of cast a wide net and you know, I kind of gathered information about them and any job opportunities that they had open. And then I started applying and then kind of highlighting, okay, green, I applied, I applied, I applied, and then I kind of grew the list.
So within building science, you can kind of take some different directions. You can go more into simulation or energy model. Or you can go more on the side of sustainability, which is very common, even for science grads. Or, and then lastly, there's like building envelope or building enclosure, which is what I ended up in. And it's just like the skin of the building, the facade. So at the time I didn't know of the three categories where I was gonna land. So even there, I just kind of like applied for like every single category.
And then so you ended up working with EllisDon, which is a really large company as a building and material sciences specialist. Was that the first position that you got or did it evolve since then?
So fortunately it was, it was the first position I got there. Okay. Yep.
I also do want to ask though, did it take time after you graduated your masters? Because I know a lot of people go through that transition period where they're applying for months and months, and maybe even doing jobs that are not related to their field while they're waiting to hear back. Was it a long process for you?
I think looking back it was actually quite short. So I was defending my MRP or presenting my MRP in somewhere in January and around that time I was, I was already interviewing and then by April I started working and I think I signed my offer letter somewhere in March, so I think within three months it was quite short. I think I could have taken more time, but it is what it is. Yeah. I mean, it's very lucky. Yeah. It's ideal for a lot of people.
What is your role and your day-to-day responsibilities now in your current position?
Like you mentioned, building material sciences specialists is the title. But the general idea of it is, so we are a general contractor. We build buildings, we build complicated buildings. So, to kind of meet the challenges of our complicated work and just the natural challenges of construction, we have a department called Construction Sciences and it's mostly engineers in every single category related construction. And then my group specifically deals with, you know, building and material sciences. So we have individuals like myself that deal with the facade, envelope colleagues that deal with concrete, and I have some more colleagues that deal with mass dimmers.
So essentially what we aim to do is tackle things at a couple of fronts. So, primarily, we aim to stay ahead of emerging technologies. So whatever the next big thing out there or the next new, I don't know, technology for facade or glass and what have you, our job's kind of to stay ahead of it and become knowledgeable in it before it trickles down into some of our sites and projects. And that way we can support our site teams that might be facing this newer technology that they might not be familiar with or know how to work with.
And then the other area is to also manage our risk. So, construction becomes more complicated, that it becomes more risky. And the building enclosure specifically is very prone to challenges during construction that could lead to very realistic problems for owners and occupants of things. Silly things like leaks and cold spots and what have you. So the idea is that, you know, us engaging in the project very early, we can help mitigate that risk by providing our technical expertise early on. So that's the short explanation.
And then specifically, what does your day-to-day look like?
It can go in a couple directions. So one day I could have a meeting scheduled where a manufacturer comes in and shows off a new system that they're working on and then as a group and myself, like we get to talk about it, vet it, ask questions, understand every little piece of how it works. And then the next hour I can be in a call with a project team and it could be very early in the design.
And we're going through architectural drawings and talking through possible risk guidance, things that need to change. Things that need to stay the same, but our site teams need to be aware of some kind of in between steps. And then, you know, a few hours later I can be on a construction site doing a site visit, reviewing things in person checking up on the progress of construction or maybe seeing an issue and coming up with a way to solve it.
But, it could be so much more. I think I have a very variable job. I can be anywhere. There have been times where I spend a whole day in a factory just looking at how things are being assembled, especially when certain facade components are pre-fabricated. Or I could be traveling to some of our other areas. So it's quite, quite diverse, what I could be up to.
This is just kind of from my own curiosity, I feel like I already know the answer, but do you ever bring in your chemistry background? Specifically thinking about the chemicals within it and then you would have a really great expertise from there? Or is it just more like the skills that you've gained from chemistry?
No, I think it really built onto each other nicely. Like a lot of specifically, like polymer chemistry, for example, is very relevant to construction materials. So many of them are made up of polymers, so understanding different classes of polymers, their structures will translate and how they behave in service. And certain polymers you can't expose to UV and, you know, coming from chemistry, you know why UV degradation occurs.
And now you have to take that understanding and then translate it into like, okay, well what does this mean for the construction team? Do they need to cover up the membrane or material immediately? Can they wait three months? Like, how does that work? So, it definitely has translated very nicely that foundational knowledge of how materials behave and what causes them to fail, which is ultimately what we're trying to prevent.
I wonder if that's also why that maybe made you a standout candidate too, just having a chemistry background. Is that common for a lot of your colleagues and peers. I'm assuming they're not coming from a chemistry background?
Yeah, so a lot of the times it's mechanical engineers, civil engineers that might pursue building science and then of course architect or architecture undergraduate students. Science specifically, and chemistry, I think I know like maybe one other person. But it's very rare. I would say it's definitely more on the engineering side.
But it really does show all the different opportunities you can have from chemistry. And at the end of the day, chemistry is everywhere. Literally everywhere. Exactly. People don't even realize, what's in front of our face, like the air is chemistry. Exactly. Literally everything. For sure.
Another thing that I really do want to talk about is you're not only a woman in science, but you're a woman in construction as well. And so I'm very interested in hearing about what that experience is like and if you face any challenges or even just within yourself.
For sure and I'm glad you bring it up and just for some context, some stats, even at my own company that the gender ratio is looking at like 80/20, so 80% male, 20% female. Andeven my first, or first two years or so of working, I used to like keep a hand count of the women I would see in meetings. And it was definitely very different than what I had both in chemistry and even in the Building Science program, where I found it was very fairly, maybe 60/40, even 50/50 in some settings.
So yeah. How it's going?I don't know an answer yet. I think I'm still figuring it out. I mean, it hasn't been necessarily bad, it's just different. I think it has been definitely a lot of character building. Just because it's one of those, like, you know, your life starts outside of your comfort zone, kind of stuff, or you know, it's when you're uncomfortable that you grow the most. So, yeah.
Well, I'm wondering what you would also say to young women. I'm thinking of myself when I was a young girl and I envisioned construction. I only saw men in it. A lot of that does have to do with one, just how the media portrays it or also just how we see the landscape. Exactly. But also a lot of my family members are construction workers and they're all men.
If I was younger thinking about working in construction, I would have made a stigma for myself saying, well, it's just for men. I don't have- I wouldn't even consider it. I mean now that I'm older and I've seen how construction is not just about physical labor, it's many different things. And even as women, you can do all those things, including physical labor. I've obviously learned so much since then.
But I'm wondering what you would say to young girls who have no idea that this is a field that is an opportunity for them or even for women who are interested in this field, but they might be intimidated to even get involved?
For sure. And I think what you said is some of the same thoughts that I had, like I just never, it was never on the table. Anyone I knew in construction was male. You know even I thought I would end up in a more like engineering firm, which is still a different environment than actual construction. And yeah, all those things hold true. I guess what I would say is that, if you find something interesting or cool and whatnot, it doesn't really matter.
That interest and internal drive will take you farther. And it won't matter really if you're one of the guys or not. And I think things have changed a lot. Like I'm already in a time period where there's still like a lot of women I have around me that much more than I would expect. They're there and they're doing really well, and they're in senior positions. They're very successful. They're very good at their job.
So I know that it's definitely an option for me to have a very long and rewarding career, whether in this area. So I would say that as long as you're following your interests, you're good. You don't have to worry about the makeup of the room or the meeting or what have you.
Yeah, I know. I agree with that too. I think it's just a getting there or even realizing that there is a place for you there, but it's things that everybody has to be talking about at the same time. We can't just do it ourselves. Unless you have somebody opening your eyes up to this career or this field, you may never even know that it's there for you.
And so as we wrap up, my last question that I usually ask is, what are your hopes for your future career development?
Wow. It couldn't have been a harder question. I mean, I think in the past I was someone very fixated on plans, very fixated on like, you know, five year plan, three year plan, or -with your Excel sheets?
Yeah, with my Excel sheets and projections and whatnot. But now that you know, now that I've made so many different turns or pivots, as some would say, I think I've learned to stop doing that. I mean, your question was about hopes. I think the hope is that I just, I enjoy what- I keep enjoying what I'm doing and I keep finding it rewarding and I think something, and kind of what I was saying earlier about being interested in it.
Like ultimately I'm really interested in what I do and when I come across something difficult or a problem, I just find it intriguing how to get to the bottom of it. Like I'm keen to like, dig into things and read up on the subject that I deal with every day at work. So as long as I feel that way about work every day, I know that I'll be in a good spot in a couple years and that it would be my only hope just to maintain that.
Well, Jelena, it was really nice having you here today and to even for me to finally be able to really sit and talk with you about your journey, because I've always been watching you from afar and I feel like a lot of people will really take what you've said and just apply it in so many different ways. Even just in science in general, you can see how you're able to really diversify it and make so many new experiences for yourself that you might not even have ever imagined.
Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure.
Thank you so much to Jelena for coming on MENT TO BE. As a chemistry major myself, I had no idea that a career in construction is a possible career path from chemistry. I really appreciated the conversation about being a woman in construction and how there are so many opportunities in this field even beyond our typical understanding of construction and building sciences.
I really wanna take a moment to emphasize how important it is for us to start having conversations with the young girls in our lives about how construction can be a possible career path. If we don't include this in our conversations, it will only slow down the progression of changing the landscape of these male dominated fields. So I really appreciate Jelena starting that conversation with us today.
Next week, we will have a guest from a kinesiology background who is now working in medical sales. Her job involves so much more than sales, though, as it also requires a presence in surgical operating. It is such a unique way to apply a kinesiology degree and become involved in healthcare, so make sure to stay tuned.
In the meantime, follow us on @mentprojects, on all social media platforms for updates and more mentorship resources. Thank you so much for listening.